Farscape Rewind: Episode 1.09

[Rustydogz]

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

I think the writers kind of lost interest in her once Chiana came along. All the "alien sexiness" then got given to her and what was left of Zhaan was pretty dull so not much came her way in terms of stories as a result. She got delegated to cooking up potions and bitching about what awful people the others were for coming up with whatever plan it was they'd come up with.

Then they seemed to get tired of Chiana and look to Jool and/ or Sizoku as the new 'sexy alien'.

Originally Posted by Mr.Infamous

The maps did fit on the crystal though, and they were too big for Moya's computer to handle. This was the reason given when they tried to download one of them. "we can't use them because there's too much data on this portable device for our entire ship's computer to handle". The fact that Namtar's little console down on the asteroid also handled even more data just fine only made it worse. It was one of those scenes that just makes you grab the bridge of your nose and close your eyes until it's over.

Maybe these Leviathans are not all they are rumored to be.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

I never got what he saw in her. Sure she looked pretty appealing time to time but so does a 20 year old Lamborghini, and she's just as tempermental and high maintenance. I figure it's just because he was too much of a fraidy cat to "boldy go where no man has gone before" with the various alien babes, so he picked the one that was 99% indistinguishable from human. Talk about wasting the opportunity of a lifetime...

He was thinking with his little brain. The writers quickly forgot, or ignored, that Crichton was a scientist who learned how to fight out of necessity. A female warrior/rocket-jockey would logically have little interest for him or in him. But they made him more the warrior, and her less so, as the series went on.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

It's funny, I just finished binging my way through all 4 seasons of Blakes 7 (will probably make a thread) and it's totally proto-Farscape. To the point where some of the characters not only act but even sort of look the same. This is one of the major recurring themes in that show as well.

Yes, they might have had B7 in mind when imagining Farscape. Also in the same vein are Firefly, Starhunter, and Cowboy Bebop.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

He's just so goddamn annoying in these early ones to the point where I've been wondering why nobody just ditched him somewhere? What does he really contribute to the "team" here that makes him so valuable, muscle? Aeryn, and even Zhaan, can do that and they're both way more stable than he is. He's basically a walking 7 foot pain in the ass at this stage. Not only do they not need him but his presence potentially places them in greater danger, especially Crichton, who he's casually tried to kill more than once for basically no reason.

I believe initially he was meant as a potential threat to the hero, an uncertain ally. Like Robin Hood having to fight both Little John and Friar Tuck before they became friends.

Originally Posted by Thyme Laird

I recall one of TPTB from Stargate mocking Farscape's puppets and animatronics in an attempt to deflect a comparison raised between the two....
....somewhere around Season 7, I think.

I recall one of the TPTB dissing Farscape as "obscure" in an interview,
while discussing Stargate's 200th episode...and I thought to myself,
"Ben Browder standing right beyond him and he's basically dissing Browder's fans, many of who migrated to Stargate."

Then there was the offhanded remark one of TPTB made that inferred that Stargate was the better show because it lasted longer and took it cues from the fans, while Farscape had been long-forgotten.

I did like Stargate, but for them to diss Farscape is inane.

Originally Posted by Tyme Laird

Aeryn and D'Argo seem almost perfect for each other at this point in the series.

I wouldn't say that exactly. I don't think she is meant to be as annoying as D'Argo. She is at this time 'the unattainable woman' character. She is meant to be conflicted, alluring and distant at the same time.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

FX don't mean shit. To mention Blakes 7 again, now that I've finished the whole series I can say with a fair degree of confidence that the ship effects and models were literally so bad at times that I think I could honestly do better working in my own capacity as a model hobbyist. Despite that though it was still a better series overall than either stargate.

Well, effects mean something, but they are not the only thing. I prefer Stargate SG1 to Blakes 7. But I never was a fan of Stargate Atlantis, or the last season of B7. I would like to see an updated version of B7. A re-imagining perhaps. I would like to be the guy to do one!

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

It's basically the same story for me. I could see myself maybe eventually becoming friends with Aeryn and offering to take her back to Earth with me even, but that's it.

That's your big brain talking. Tell it to shut up and picture her in that bikini from season four.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

None of the Farscape girls are really what you'd call stable.

Chiana: is too impulsive, frivilous and terrified of any kind of semi permanent commitment

Her character was altered, reduced in scope, later in the series. This will come up when we get to those episodes. But basically they began her as a complex girl who lived a desperate life on the run; sometimes a thief, sometimes a seductress, tough, smart, and 'streetwise'. Then in later seasons her role was reduced to being the ship tramp.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

Zhaan: is something like 800 years old, occasionally terrifying, and actually a plant.

They should have planted and re-grown her as intended. It would have made a cool sequence.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

Sikozu: is a robot and generally deceptive and superior

Oh but so very sexy. More so with the long hair than the short.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

Grayza: is just going to make you into her bitch and be off to collect another.

I did not find her appealing. Murderous, not very bright (though the actress insisted she was intelligent), and to me not physically attractive.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

Noranti: is your grandma

We should substitute Gelina in this spot. She was a good match for John. It would have made an interesting triangle.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

Jool: is even more high maintenance than Aeryn at first but seems to actually mature a lot toward the end of her run. I'd say she's actually the best choice myself, if you can suffer though the initial bullshit that is.

She had mostly the same personality as Sikozu. At least their initial personalities were the same, they developed in different ways. But it seemed that Sikozu was a 'reboot' of Jool. And yes, Jool did have her appealing qualities.

Originally Posted by Thyme Laird

Yeah, I could always get into an old Blake's 7 or Doctor Who episode more than Stargate.

You always got the sense that despite the lack of production values,
they were really taking the show seriously.

At least until the fourth season. Even the cast members apologize for that fourth season. But I haven't seen it in a hundred years, so ...

Originally Posted by Thyme Laird

As opposed to Stargate, where they had the production values, but didn't approach it with the appropriate level of seriousness or believability.

The choice was to make it more light-hearted, action and humor orientated. I can take that, and alternatively I can take the grim drama of something like BSG.

Originally Posted by Thyme Laird

Well, Voyager had a major crisis on their hands when Jennifer Lien left.
Watch the first couple seasons and you'll notice that she was the lynchpin of series.
They should have called it Star Trek: Kes.

I like her in the first few seasons, then she became annoying and superfluous. She was actually best when that conqueror possessed her body. They should have kept her that way.

[Mr. Infamous]

Originally Posted by Thyme Laird

Yeah, I could always get into an old Blake's 7 or Doctor Who episode more than Stargate.

You always got the sense that despite the lack of production values,
they were really taking the show seriously.

As opposed to Stargate, where they had the production values,
but didn't approach it with the appropriate level of seriousness or believability.

That's pretty much it right there. You could tell that even though all the actors and writers probably got together and tossed in loose change to pay for the FX budget on a given episode that they were trying to actually make something with what they had. I watched an interview on youtube where I think it was Gareth Thomas that said it worked because the people were real. That so long as the people were real and they acted like real people the setting didn't matter. I'd extend that same sort of feeling to the effects and all as well. I didn't care that the engines on the back of Servalan's cruiser looked like someone poked a hole in clay with their finger, so long as the people that were suppossed to be in the cruiser were interesting enough to hold my attention.

With stargate, more particularly atlantis and the latter SG-1, it was rather the opposite. They had the big budget for FX so they just coasted on that a lot of the time but in terms of actual realism they still consistantly got it wrong. It was a pretty hilarious realization when while watching B7 I noticed that despite the utterly massive technology and funding gap between the two series, the way they represented things like space combat was still fundamentally more realistic in terms of basic principals than it was in SGA.

Well, Voyager had a major crisis on their hands when Jennifer Lien left.
Watch the first couple seasons and you'll notice that she was the lynchpin of series.
Nearly all the main characters were involved in her life.
Neelix was her love interest.
She worked as the Doctor's assistant.
Tuvok instructed her in controlling her mental abilities.
She was mentored by Janeway.
Tom trained her as a pilot.
They should have called it Star Trek: Kes.

I never realy looked at it like that before. I always figured she was sort of a failed attempt at a catsuit babe, failing mostly due to the fact that they put her in a relationship with the most irritating upright hedgehog in the galaxy right from the start.

You got her pinned down.

I think that's a side of her that a lot of people miss. She's not really this unflinchingly moral, serene and enwisened being that loves all creatures great and small. That's what she wants to be yes, but it's all more or less an act she puts on. More something she pretends at being rather than something she really is, hoping to fool everyone into believing it including herself. If you corner her though she's actually very sneaky, underhanded and extremely morally flexible, a real wolf in sheep's clothing. I think she's aware of it on some level to though, and views it as her own weakness, that's she's not who she pretends to be, and that's why she gets so emotional and snappy sometimes when placed in situations where her less noble instincts are given potential opportunity to assert themselves. She hates how her own feelings in those situations inevitably surface to remind her of her big lie so she gets angry and short with people.

I'll probably get into this more in the next episode review since it's "the Zhaan episode".

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

Chi was fun but she's more buddy material to me.

Which helps fulfill my recommended daily allowance.

... of emotional issues as deep, dark and terrifying as the void of intergalactic space?

But she's well built.

I wonder if she's still under warranty?

All that plus sweaty boobs.

That's really the dealbreaker for me to. At least without the boob sweat she'd have to actually work at breaking down your will to resist her self-centered controlling bullshit over the course of a relationship, you know, like a normal woman. With the boob sweat though it's like 0 to married in 1.3 seconds.

I'm reasonably certain my grandmother didn't look like a cross between Ross Perot and Shiva.

I always had this funny notion of possible development for her where it would be revealed that she was actually John's lover from the distant future, (after Aeryn and even he had died) who'd come back in time somehow via wormhole tech he'd mastered by then to influence his past.

There's also a lot of clean up involved...melted metal and strands of hair.

I always wondered why her shrieking never just outright killed Scorpius, probably because she never really met him. He's got metal rods suspended in his brain and the whole apparatus that changes them out is also metal. One look at him and she'll flip out and he'll pretty much drop dead, either right on the spot or after he can't change rods due to his rig being warped or fused together. Probably the best argument for John to have hooked up with her right there.

Dude, it's obvious where he went wrong.
Gilina saves his ass and he gives her a weak-assed greeting.
Of course, it didn't help that Chiana stepped in to lie for him.
So, Gilina dithers and ends up dead
because John rather cater to Aeryn's rollercoaster of self-discovery and self-denial.

Well if guest stars are allowed I'm skipping right past Gillina on my way to Jenavian. She's basically a version of Aeryn where everything annoying about Aeryn has been stripped away and everything good made better. Sure she's a professional assassin with a knife in her arm but shit, lots of people are trying to kill me out here right. I bet she'd even beat the tar out of annoying early Dargo for me if I asked her nicely, being that he's an inferior species and I'd encourage her to enjoy it as much as possible. Now that's the sort of relationship that's got some real staying power.

If the player is Region 0, you can play any region.
Most are coded to a specific region...and many can be hacked.
Many give you the option to choose and give you several chances to switch before it permanently changes.
I do own a Region 0 player.
I was just waiting for an actual Region 1 version to be released.

How did you see it then?

Monitors have better resolutions than most televisions.

Doesn't surprise me. You can't exactly watch a TV from 4 feet away and expect it not to look like total shit, different design criteria.

[Mr. Infamous]

Originally Posted by Rustydogz

Then they seemed to get tired of Chiana and look to Jool and/ or Sizoku as the new 'sexy alien'.

Towards the end they pretty much all got sidelined while the John and Aeryn monster ate up all the screentime.

He was thinking with his little brain. The writers quickly forgot, or ignored, that Crichton was a scientist who learned how to fight out of necessity. A female warrior/rocket-jockey would logically have little interest for him or in him. But they made him more the warrior, and her less so, as the series went on.

Yeah that was rather bizzare to say the least. They almost swapped roles in the end, only she never did any science after this season I think.

Yes, they might have had B7 in mind when imagining Farscape. Also in the same vein are Firefly, Starhunter, and Cowboy Bebop.

Firefly definately, I never saw Bebop though but I have always wondered, what exactly is a Bebop?

I believe initially he was meant as a potential threat to the hero, an uncertain ally. Like Robin Hood having to fight both Little John and Friar Tuck before they became friends.

Probably, but he still comes accross as a total dick. I've got to admit I would have been doing things like trying to cheer him on to missions I know he'd want to take like "go fight those Tavleks, show 'em who's boss" in the hopes that somebody would eventually solve my problem for me... ballistically. You can't just pop him because then you're the badguy and they all turn on you, but if he's ultimately done in by his own over aggressive stupidity and lack of forethought then it's a lot easier to bullshit your way out of any partial blame for only encouraging him a little bit or planting (bad) ideas in his head.

I did like Stargate, but for them to diss Farscape is inane.

I liked the earlier seasons as well but toward the end it really started to turn into a case study of what not to do in terms of how to write a sci-fi series. I won't fault the actors or the effects but the writing really took a turn from interesting and funny while still managing to be serious when it needed to, to just a real phoned in lazy kind of coasting. Resting on their laurels as they say.

Well, effects mean something, but they are not the only thing. I prefer Stargate SG1 to Blakes 7. But I never was a fan of Stargate Atlantis, or the last season of B7. I would like to see an updated version of B7. A re-imagining perhaps. I would like to be the guy to do one!

I won't defend season 4 either. There was one or two decent episodes in it but it was largely quite bad. The show lost something in general when Blake left I think. Avon was a fantastic character yes, but he made for a lousy leader.

That's your big brain talking. Tell it to shut up and picture her in that bikini from season four.

Season 4, sorry Grayza's boobs keep getting in the way.

Her character was altered, reduced in scope, later in the series. This will come up when we get to those episodes. But basically they began her as a complex girl who lived a desperate life on the run; sometimes a thief, sometimes a seductress, tough, smart, and 'streetwise'. Then in later seasons her role was reduced to being the ship tramp.

It was funny the way she seemed to grow even more immature the longer she spent on Moya. When she first arrived she actually seemed a lot more world wise and mature than later, definately a lot sexier. Then she just sort of got gradually more squeeky, childish and sometimes even bordered on annyoing.

They should have planted and re-grown her as intended. It would have made a cool sequence.

But that would have required that she actually be able to step back after pushing a button or just, you know, hit the last key with a stick or something.

Oh but so very sexy. More so with the long hair than the short.

I know it will sound ridiculous to say this given the show but she always looked weird to me, and not in a good way. The actress is smokin' but the character just doesn't click with me.

I did not find her appealing. Murderous, not very bright (though the actress insisted she was intelligent), and to me not physically attractive.

How physically attractive she was varied based on who'd done the makeup that day. Sometimes she looked like someone drowned a zombie in a chemical toilet, but other times she looked like this.

I never got a sense that she was stupid though. She wan't Scorpy but she wasn't Crais either, and she did manage to get everything she wanted at the end of the show and more so that's got to count for something. I think with her any shortcomings in her character can mainly be put down to her lack of screentime and development in general. Even Scorpy kind of sucked at first, and even Crais got a lot better later on.

We should substitute Gelina in this spot. She was a good match for John. It would have made an interesting triangle.

Jenavian trumps Gillina, she was even in more episodes.

She had mostly the same personality as Sikozu. At least their initial personalities were the same, they developed in different ways. But it seemed that Sikozu was a 'reboot' of Jool. And yes, Jool did have her appealing qualities.

I'd say the major difference was that with Jool a lot of the nasty stuff she spouted off from time to time toward the others I think was more or less just her parroting back her upbringing without really thinking about it for herself. As she spent more time with the crew though she became way less of a bitch.

With Sikozu on the other hand I always got the sense that she actually believed the various nasty things she said to a far greater extent; where as Jool just threw them out as a sort of defense mechanism to try and act haughty and superior because she was initially under incredible stress and more or less constantly afraid due to being so far out of her comfort zone.

[Thyme Laird]

Originally Posted by Rustydogz

Then they seemed to get tired of Chiana and look to Jool and/ or Sizoku as the new 'sexy alien'.

Oh, those fickle writers.

Originally Posted by Rustydogz

Maybe these Leviathans are not all they are rumored to be.

I'd agree with you, but I was never able to suspend disbelief on the whole organically-grown biomechaniod ship thing in the first place.

And every time they attempt an explanation of the nature of Leviathans,
they just keep digging themselves in deeper as far as I am concerned.

Living ship...fine. Made of metal...fine.
Complete with accommodations, control panels, and an interface for a pilot...utter crap.
Yeah, I know it was engineered, but if they're going that far out on a limb,
they should have designed a much more convincing interior.

Originally Posted by Rustydogz

Yes, they might have had B7 in mind when imagining Farscape. Also in the same vein are Firefly, Starhunter, and Cowboy Bebop.

I read somewhere that Blake's 7 was considered the prototype for this series,
much as Kolchak the Night Stalker was for The X-Files.
By whom, I don't recall exactly...certainly many fans have drawn the comparison.

Originally Posted by Rustydogz

I believe initially he was meant as a potential threat to the hero, an uncertain ally. Like Robin Hood having to fight both Little John and Friar Tuck before they became friends.

I can see that, but it wasn't handled well.

Originally Posted by Rustydogz

I did like Stargate, but for them to diss Farscape is inane.

I liked Stargate as well and quite often got frustrated as it's potential was consistently squandered.
They were slacking, there was a drop in quality, and they knew it.
Their press releases and interviews were so transparent, it was surreal.
Farscape took risks, while Stargate was indirectly run by the fans.
They felt threatened by Farscape. They used the Stargate bullhorn to mock it.
Mustn't allow fans to be exposed to better sci-fi....
....they might expect the cast & crew to work.

Originally Posted by Rustydogz

I wouldn't say that exactly. I don't think she is meant to be as annoying as D'Argo. She is at this time 'the unattainable woman' character. She is meant to be conflicted, alluring and distant at the same time.

I suppose two out of three isn't bad.

Originally Posted by Rustydogz

Well, effects mean something, but they are not the only thing. I prefer Stargate SG1 to Blakes 7.

Early Stargate is more interesting.
I grew up on Doctor Who, so I learned to substitute special effects from my imagination.

Originally Posted by Rustydogz

I would like to see an updated version of B7. A re-imagining perhaps.

It would have to be a reimagining.
Continuing the original would require too much explanation,
plus you couldn't even have the benefits of previous footage because it looks so dated.

Originally Posted by Rustydogz

Her character was altered, reduced in scope, later in the series. This will come up when we get to those episodes. But basically they began her as a complex girl who lived a desperate life on the run; sometimes a thief, sometimes a seductress, tough, smart, and 'streetwise'. Then in later seasons her role was reduced to being the ship tramp.

And that's when she stole my heart.

Originally Posted by Rustydogz

The choice was to make it more light-hearted, action and humor orientated. I can take that, and alternatively I can take the grim drama of something like BSG.

I liked the humor, but it was often inappropriately timed in the context of an episode or scene.
Basically, it was RDA getting bored with the show, and thinking,
"Ah, let's ham it up. After all, it's only sci-fi."

[Thyme Laird]

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

That's pretty much it right there. You could tell that even though all the actors and writers probably got together and tossed in loose change to pay for the FX budget on a given episode that they were trying to actually make something with what they had. I watched an interview on youtube where I think it was Gareth Thomas that said it worked because the people were real. That so long as the people were real and they acted like real people the setting didn't matter. I'd extend that same sort of feeling to the effects and all as well. I didn't care that the engines on the back of Servalan's cruiser looked like someone poked a hole in clay with their finger, so long as the people that were suppossed to be in the cruiser were interesting enough to hold my attention.

Basically, early Doctor Who was a televised stage production for children....
....yet I find William Hartnell and William Russell pondering the chances of their characters' survival on an amazingly unconvincing stage set to be far more compelling than Richard Dean Anderson dismissing his character's supposedly powerful foes and having him crack jokes at inappropriate times.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

With stargate, more particularly atlantis and the latter SG-1, it was rather the opposite. They had the big budget for FX so they just coasted on that a lot of the time but in terms of actual realism they still consistantly got it wrong. It was a pretty hilarious realization when while watching B7 I noticed that despite the utterly massive technology and funding gap between the two series, the way they represented things like space combat was still fundamentally more realistic in terms of basic principals than it was in SGA.

The actor has to sell it. Otherwise, the audience doesn't feel the threat and there is effectively no drama that will resonant with them and all those big budget production values seem shallow.

During his run in Doctor Who, Tom Baker's job was to constantly allude to the offscreen menace in lieu of the production team spending money to show it the audience...and Baker would give stirring narratives on the threat and build it up.

Take the other extreme in The Phantom Menace when the Gungans fight the Droid Army.
Big battle...should be dramatic, right? You feel nothing for those characters.
Two armies of ciphers clash and we're supposed to care?

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

I never realy looked at it like that before. I always figured she was sort of a failed attempt at a catsuit babe, failing mostly due to the fact that they put her in a relationship with the most irritating upright hedgehog in the galaxy right from the start.

I did a marathon of Voyager Season 1 once, and picked up on the trend.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

I think that's a side of her that a lot of people miss. She's not really this unflinchingly moral, serene and enwisened being that loves all creatures great and small. That's what she wants to be yes, but it's all more or less an act she puts on. More something she pretends at being rather than something she really is, hoping to fool everyone into believing it including herself. If you corner her though she's actually very sneaky, underhanded and extremely morally flexible, a real wolf in sheep's clothing. I think she's aware of it on some level to though, and views it as her own weakness, that's she's not who she pretends to be, and that's why she gets so emotional and snappy sometimes when placed in situations where her less noble instincts are given potential opportunity to assert themselves. She hates how her own feelings in those situations inevitably surface to remind her of her big lie so she gets angry and short with people.

She certainly bullshits herself and she certainly gets agitated when she gets called on it.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

Chi was fun but she's more buddy material to me.

As opposed to the deep meaningful relationship I had been planning.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

... of emotional issues as deep, dark and terrifying as the void of intergalactic space?

Well, it's important to have some common ground in a relationship.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

I wonder if she's still under warranty?

Maybe she can get that eye fixed.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

That's really the dealbreaker for me to. At least without the boob sweat she'd have to actually work at breaking down your will to resist her self-centered controlling bullshit over the course of a relationship, you know, like a normal woman. With the boob sweat though it's like 0 to married in 1.3 seconds.

Yeah, it really crimps my own self-centered controlling bullshit program.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

I always had this funny notion of possible development for her where it would be revealed that she was actually John's lover from the distant future, (after Aeryn and even he had died) who'd come back in time somehow via wormhole tech he'd mastered by then to influence his past.

Apparently, John completely loses his mind in that future.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

Well if guest stars are allowed I'm skipping right past Gillina on my way to Jenavian. She's basically a version of Aeryn where everything annoying about Aeryn has been stripped away and everything good made better. Sure she's a professional assassin with a knife in her arm but shit, lots of people are trying to kill me out here right. I bet she'd even beat the tar out of annoying early Dargo for me if I asked her nicely, being that he's an inferior species and I'd encourage her to enjoy it as much as possible. Now that's the sort of relationship that's got some real staying power.

Well, I can fight own battles, but I could use a hand building my deathray.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

How did you see it then?

PBS during the 80s and then from the resulting sporadic VHS recordings I made.

[Thyme Laird]

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

I liked the earlier seasons as well but toward the end it really started to turn into a case study of what not to do in terms of how to write a sci-fi series. I won't fault the actors or the effects but the writing really took a turn from interesting and funny while still managing to be serious when it needed to, to just a real phoned in lazy kind of coasting. Resting on their laurels as they say.

And it's amazing that if you read between the lines, they pretty much admit to it.

Also, in Atlantis, you can see them constantly tacking with the wind, to please fans of specific characters, rather than allow the characters to be genuinely threatened or realistically developed.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

I won't defend season 4 either. There was one or two decent episodes in it but it was largely quite bad. The show lost something in general when Blake left I think. Avon was a fantastic character yes, but he made for a lousy leader.

I loved his descent into complete paranoia.
Man, that was a great character. He was such a merciless dick.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

It was funny the way she seemed to grow even more immature the longer she spent on Moya. When she first arrived she actually seemed a lot more world wise and mature than later, definately a lot sexier. Then she just sort of got gradually more squeeky, childish and sometimes even bordered on annyoing.

I found her annoying from the get-go.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

But that would have required that she actually be able to step back after pushing a button or just, you know, hit the last key with a stick or something.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

How physically attractive she was varied based on who'd done the makeup that day. Sometimes she looked like someone drowned a zombie in a chemical toilet

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

Jenavian trumps Gillina, she was even in more episodes.

You can have Jenavian then. I'll take the dead girl. Hmmm.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

I'd say the major difference was that with Jool a lot of the nasty stuff she spouted off from time to time toward the others I think was more or less just her parroting back her upbringing without really thinking about it for herself. As she spent more time with the crew though she became way less of a bitch.

Ironic for such an "educated" culture.
Jool's the type who would be easily manipulated when exposed to the real world.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

With Sikozu on the other hand I always got the sense that she actually believed the various nasty things she said to a far greater extent; where as Jool just threw them out as a sort of defense mechanism to try and act haughty and superior because she was initially under incredible stress and more or less constantly afraid due to being so far out of her comfort zone.

Well, I always wondered about Sikozu's culture.
What the hell do they do to prepare themselves to not be "weak"?

[Mr. Infamous]

Originally Posted by Thyme Laird

Basically, early Doctor Who was a televised stage production for children....
....yet I find William Hartnell and William Russell pondering the chances of their characters' survival on an amazingly unconvincing stage set to be far more compelling than Richard Dean Anderson dismissing his character's supposedly powerful foes and having him crack jokes at inappropriate times.

The actor has to sell it. Otherwise, the audience doesn't feel the threat and there is effectively no drama that will resonant with them and all those big budget production values seem shallow.

The selling it aspect was a HUGE problem with stargate, maybe even the problem now that I think about it. It's like they took O'neill's attitude from the early show and since that worked figured why not give it to every character then. The forgot though that the reason why O'neill worked early on was because he was the only one doing it, basically subverting the "serious" sci-fi situations everyone else was experiencing with a wink of humour directed at the audience. When a wink from one character here and there turned into a full blown three ring circus though then it didn't work anymore. If nobody's taking this stuff seriously and everybody is cracking stupid jokes then the humourous contrast is gone and you're not subverting anything anymore, you're just undermining the drama in your own show by writing the whole thing to be non threatening.

Yeah, it really crimps my own self-centered controlling bullshit program.

Totally, it's basically cheating.

Apparently, John completely loses his mind in that future.

I would have made her hot when she was young to, just to totally screw with people.

Originally Posted by Thyme Laird

And it's amazing that if you read between the lines, they pretty much admit to it.

I picked up on that as well.

Also, in Atlantis, you can see them constantly tacking with the wind, to please fans of specific characters, rather than allow the characters to be genuinely threatened or realistically developed.

This is why I thought my "save the full frontal nudity" campaign could have worked.

I loved his descent into complete paranoia.
Man, that was a great character. He was such a merciless dick.

I was really stunned in the S4 episode where he was seriously going to murder Villa so his overloaded shuttle could achieve orbit. Even after 4 years side by side he still would have done it had he been able to find him. I absolutely believe he would have, and so did poor Villa hiding in the dark.

I found her annoying from the get-go.

I remember I saw these makeup tests for her once that never made it into the show where they'd given her sharp teeth and a much "scarier" appearance. She probably would have worked out more interesting in the end had they actually stuck with that instead of making her cute.

You can have Jenavian then. I'll take the dead girl. Hmmm.

Don't forget to dunk her in the porta John first.

Ironic for such an "educated" culture.

They're only "educated" by their own description. I regretted never seeing any more of her homeworld/people though. I was hoping the comic books might pick up on it since they did Hyneria, but with her being dead it's pretty unlikely unless they bring her back somehow or set it earlier in the show.

Jool's the type who would be easily manipulated when exposed to the real world.

Indeed, she had no common sense at all. I can only image what someone like Avon could have made her do.

Well, I always wondered about Sikozu's culture.
What the hell do they do to prepare themselves to not be "weak"?

Download updated drivers?

[Thyme Laird]

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

The selling it aspect was a HUGE problem with stargate, maybe even the problem now that I think about it. It's like they took O'neill's attitude from the early show and since that worked figured why not give it to every character then. The forgot though that the reason why O'neill worked early on was because he was the only one doing it, basically subverting the "serious" sci-fi situations everyone else was experiencing with a wink of humour directed at the audience. When a wink from one character here and there turned into a full blown three ring circus though then it didn't work anymore. If nobody's taking this stuff seriously and everybody is cracking stupid jokes then the humourous contrast is gone and you're not subverting anything anymore, you're just undermining the drama in your own show by writing the whole thing to be non threatening.

And, as time went on, O'Neill's behavior went way over the top.
He's supposed to be an air force colonel for crying out loud.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

I would have made her hot when she was young to, just to totally screw with people.

Dude, you could end up seriously traumatizing yourself trying to pull that off.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

I was really stunned in the S4 episode where he was seriously going to murder Villa so his overloaded shuttle could achieve orbit. Even after 4 years side by side he still would have done it had he been able to find him. I absolutely believe he would have, and so did poor Villa hiding in the dark.

Originally Posted by Avon

Villa, come here, I want to talk to you.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

Download updated drivers?

I was referring to the non-bioloid Kalish.

[Rustydogz]

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

Well if guest stars are allowed I'm skipping right past Gillina on my way to Jenavian. She's basically a version of Aeryn where everything annoying about Aeryn has been stripped away and everything good made better. Sure she's a professional assassin with a knife in her arm but shit, lots of people are trying to kill me out here right. I bet she'd even beat the tar out of annoying early Dargo for me if I asked her nicely, being that he's an inferior species and I'd encourage her to enjoy it as much as possible. Now that's the sort of relationship that's got some real staying power.

Yes, she was kind of odd yet alluring. And then there is the girl Cricton left behind: Alexandra. It is interesting how easily they insert her into the narrative (via hallucination and memory manipulation) in the coming episode.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

Towards the end they pretty much all got sidelined while the John and Aeryn monster ate up all the screentime.

The writers writing what the fans want?

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

Firefly definately, I never saw Bebop though but I have always wondered, what exactly is a Bebop?

It is a form of jazz that had its greatest popularity in the 1940's (Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Thelonius Monk, etc.).

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

I liked the earlier seasons as well but toward the end it really started to turn into a case study of what not to do in terms of how to write a sci-fi series. I won't fault the actors or the effects but the writing really took a turn from interesting and funny while still managing to be serious when it needed to, to just a real phoned in lazy kind of coasting. Resting on their laurels as they say.

I thought SG1 revitalized itself the last two years with new villains and the new characters. It was still better than SGAtlantis.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

But that would have required that she actually be able to step back after pushing a button or just, you know, hit the last key with a stick or something.

Perhaps she left a bulb or a bit of root in her quarters. Maybe that's where Stark's voices were trying to lead him.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

I never got a sense that she was stupid though. She wan't Scorpy but she wasn't Crais either, and she did manage to get everything she wanted at the end of the show and more so that's got to count for something. I think with her any shortcomings in her character can mainly be put down to her lack of screentime and development in general. Even Scorpy kind of sucked at first, and even Crais got a lot better later on.

She was the dupe of the Scarrans. Then she only agreed to peace when her entire fleet had been destroyed and she was next. I always liked Scorpy. Crais was more interesting as the male version of Aeryn's story than as the lead villain, but even so, I always found his presence pointless.

Originally Posted by Mr. Infamous

I'd say the major difference was that with Jool a lot of the nasty stuff she spouted off from time to time toward the others I think was more or less just her parroting back her upbringing without really thinking about it for herself. As she spent more time with the crew though she became way less of a bitch.

With Sikozu on the other hand I always got the sense that she actually believed the various nasty things she said to a far greater extent; where as Jool just threw them out as a sort of defense mechanism to try and act haughty and superior because she was initially under incredible stress and more or less constantly afraid due to being so far out of her comfort zone.

Yes, Jool was just being defensive and spoiled. Sikozu seemed to lighten up for a while, then she started the nasty comments again. She did seem serious, but she was smacked down a couple of times by Aeryn and Chiana.

A problem was that both Jool and Sikozu were introduced as initially antagonistic to the crew. This is good for drama, but when the established fanbase loves the characters, any hostile newcomer is disliked. Then a few eps later the fans are asked to accept this character as a new part of the 'family'. Unsurprisingly, we learn in the dvd extras that fans were 'very slow to accept Jool', and perhaps never did, since she didn't last long. With Sikozu the producers tried again but I doubt had better results.

Originally Posted by Thyme Laird

I grew up on Doctor Who, so I learned to substitute special effects from my imagination.

Me too. The stories and characters were interesting enough it didn't matter that the effects were not equal to Star Trek or whatever.

Originally Posted by Thyme Laird

It would have to be a reimagining.
Continuing the original would require too much explanation,
plus you couldn't even have the benefits of previous footage because it looks so dated.

A production company recently acquired the rights. They produced a radio series, which I have not heard, and are trying to find funding for a tv version. The radio series is a remake, maybe a reimagining. A continuation would be bad. We need Blake and the original crew, or a close approximation.

Originally Posted by Thyme Laird

Basically, early Doctor Who was a televised stage production for children....
....yet I find William Hartnell and William Russell pondering the chances of their characters' survival on an amazingly unconvincing stage set to be far more compelling than Richard Dean Anderson dismissing his character's supposedly powerful foes and having him crack jokes at inappropriate times.

The actor has to sell it. Otherwise, the audience doesn't feel the threat and there is effectively no drama that will resonant with them and all those big budget production values seem shallow.

During his run in Doctor Who, Tom Baker's job was to constantly allude to the offscreen menace in lieu of the production team spending money to show it the audience...and Baker would give stirring narratives on the threat and build it up.

Take the other extreme in The Phantom Menace when the Gungans fight the Droid Army.
Big battle...should be dramatic, right? You feel nothing for those characters.
Two armies of ciphers clash and we're supposed to care?

The writing and the acting are more important than CGI. But spectacle, i.e. CGI, explosions, constant movement, lots of shaking cameras and lights and quick cuts, are what many sf and fantasy fans look for.

Originally Posted by Thyme Laird

Ironic for such an "educated" culture.
Jool's the type who would be easily manipulated when exposed to the real world.

Well, I always wondered about Sikozu's culture.
What the hell do they do to prepare themselves to not be "weak"?

Someone like Jool would have to learn and adapt very quickly to survive. She is lucky that a group like Moya's crew were the ones to find her. Take a movie like Chronicles of Riddick for example. The somewhat naive girl in that one hired on with a crew of bounty hunters and they promptly assaulted her and sold her into slavery.

Sikozu's culture developed and changed under Scarran rule. Eventually all that mattered was to be strong and ruthless and one day defeat the Scarrans.

I noticed a lot of talk about 'superior species' and 'inferior species', and 'weak species' vrs 'strong species', especially in the later seasons, and not just from Sikozu. Was there supposed to be a Nazi Party influence in this part of the galaxy? The longer the series went on, the more we heard this crap.

Originally Posted by Thyme Laird

I remember I saw these makeup tests for her once that never made it into the show where they'd given her sharp teeth and a much "scarier" appearance. She probably would have worked out more interesting in the end had they actually stuck with that instead of making her cute.

I liked Chiana cute. But what was the rationale for her eyes changing color and size so often?

Originally Posted by Thyme Laird

They're only "educated" by their own description. I regretted never seeing any more of her homeworld/people though. I was hoping the comic books might pick up on it since they did Hyneria, but with her being dead it's pretty unlikely unless they bring her back somehow or set it earlier in the show.

They could always say that the Scarran volley destroyed only the Citadel's surface layers, and that Jool was in the underground layers, and therefore safe.

Originally Posted by Thyme Laird

Indeed, she had no common sense at all. I can only image what someone like Avon could have made her do.

[Thyme Laird]

Originally Posted by Rustydogz

A production company recently acquired the rights. They produced a radio series, which I have not heard, and are trying to find funding for a tv version. The radio series is a remake, maybe a reimagining. A continuation would be bad. We need Blake and the original crew, or a close approximation.

They've been shuffling rights and in talks for a new series for years.
I'd love to see a new version, but only if they respect the material.

Originally Posted by Rustydogz

The writing and the acting are more important than CGI. But spectacle, i.e. CGI, explosions, constant movement, lots of shaking cameras and lights and quick cuts, are what many sf and fantasy fans look for.

Television used to be more leisurely.
No time to process what you're watching anymore.